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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Think twice before abandoning X11. Wayland breaks everything!

image

Wayland breaks everything! It is binary incompatible, provides no clear transition path with 1:1 replacements for everything in X11, and is even philosophically incompatible with X11. Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Feature comparison

Please do fact-check and suggest corrections/improvements below. Maybe this table should find its home in a Wiki, so that everyone could easily collaborate. I'm just a bit fearful of vandalism... ideas?

✅ Supported ⚠️ Available with limitations ❌ Not available or only available on some systems (requires particular compositors or additional software which may not be present on every system)

Functionality Xorg Wayland
Performance ✅ Best (DistroWatch) ⚠️ Worse (DistroWatch)
Power consumption ? ?
RAM usage ✅ ~150 MB lower (Phoronix) ⚠️ ~150 MB higher (Phoronix)
Nvidia GPUs ✅ Well supported by proprietary Nvidia driver, also older hardware (open source driver Nouveau never worked satisfactorily) ⚠️ Only recent hardware
Multi-monitor ✅ Supported via XRandR, Xinerama (TheServerHost, KDE Blog) ✅ Stable, dynamic hotplug, theoretically better (debatable, comment) multi-monitor support (KDE Blog, CBT Nuggets)
Multi-resolution Multi-screen Support ✅ Can be done (tedu); mixed refresh rates (guiodic, Reddit) ✅ Per-output resolutions and per-output scaling with sharp rendering (CBT Nuggets, EndeavourOS Forum)
Cropping and Scaling ✅ Per monitor with XRandR (xrandr manpage) wp_viewporter, wp_fractional_scale_manager_v1, per-window ("surface") cropping (Wayland Protos, KDE Dev) - but applications can be blurry
Screen Recording / Capture ✅ Supported via X APIs; easy screen & window recording (Xlib Manual, OBS Wiki) ❌ Not natively available—wlr-screencopy and/or ext-image-copy-capture can be used without Portals but may not be present on every system. Otherwise requires Screencast Portal, which may not be present on every system (GNOME Docs, PipeWire Portal FAQ).
Input Devices / Event Routing XInput, XInput2, global intercept (XInput2 Docs) ❌ Input routed only to focused window ("surface"), no global interception (Wayland FAQ, Wayland Security)
Input Injection ✅ Via XTEST, XSendEvent (XTEST Spec) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (libei GH, KDE Input) . Workaround: /dev/uinput should work everywhere.
Global Hotkeys / Key Grabs XGrabKey()/XGrabButton() (Xlib Docs) ❌ Not natively available—requires Global Shortcuts Portal, which may not be present on every system (Portal Docs, KDE)
Window Positioning / Stacking ✅ Clients move/resize windows (Xlib Ref) ❌ Only compositor controls window positioning (Wayland FAQ, KDE Dev)
Clipboard Access ✅ Full/explicit, ICCCM selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop / Copy and Paste ✅ Xdnd, Motif (Xdnd Spec), Motif (Motif DND) ⚠️ wl_data_offer, wl_data_device_manager (Wayland Protos, KDE Drag&Drop) but implementations are flaky, especially when dragging between X11 and Wayland applications
Touch / Gesture Support XInput2 (XInput Multi-Touch) wl_touch, gestures via zwp_pointer_gestures_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Tablet Support XInput2 (libinput Tablet) zwp_tablet_manager_v2 (Wayland Protos)
Remote Display / Network Transparency ✅ X11 protocol, SSH forwarding (OpenBSD FAQ, XForwarding) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (Wayland FAQ)
Screen Configuration XRandR direct (xrandr manpage) ❌ Only compositor can set layout; clients have no access (KDE Dev). Supported by some compositors which may not be present on every system via wlr-output-management and associated tools like wlr-randr.
Global menus ✅ Works ❌ Not natively available—requires qt_extended_surface set_generic_property which may not be present on every system
Window Management Hints (size, position) XSetWMHints, XSetNormalHints (ICCCM) ❌ Position not supported, only size
Window Title / Icon Name XSetWMName, XSetIconName (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_title/set_icon (xdg-shell)
Window State (iconic, withdrawn, etc.) XSetWMState (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed to clients; handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Protocols (WM_DELETE_WINDOW) ✅ ICCCM, WM_DELETE_WINDOW (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.close (xdg-shell)
Window Class / Instance XSetClassHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Transience (dialogs, popups) XSetTransientForHint (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_parent (xdg-shell)
Input Focus (active window) XSetInputFocus (Xlib Ref) ❌ Managed by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Selections ✅ Selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop ✅ Motif/Xdnd (Xdnd Spec) ✅ Native protocol (Wayland/Drag&Drop)
Window Grouping XSetWMHints group (ICCCM) ❌ No concept/protocol for grouping (Wayland FAQ)
Input Model / Input Hint ✅ Input model hints (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed/natively supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Manager Communication ✅ ICCCM client-to-WM (ICCCM) ❌ No standard protocol (Wayland FAQ)
Colormap / Visual hints ✅ Colormap per ICCCM (ICCCM) ⚠️ Handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Icon Pixmap / Bitmap ✅ ICCCM icon hints (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_icon (xdg-shell)
Urgency Hint XUrgencyHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not standardized; up to compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Shade (roll up/down) WM_STATE (mapped/unmapped state) ❌ Not supported
Window Always On Top (z-order) ✅ Applications can request stacking/z-order via WM_HINTS, window group, _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE (EWMH) ❌ Not supported
Exclusive Display Control / DRM Leasing ⚠️ No protocol, possible with libdrm (libdrm) wp_drm_lease_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Transparency / Compositing ⚠️ With composite extension/compton/picom (wiki.archlinux) ✅ Built-in; always composited (Wayland FAQ)
Color Management ⚠️ Apps/loaders like xiccd (XCM docs) wp-color-manager-v1 (Wayland Protos)
VSync / Tear-free Rendering ⚠️ Inconsistent, needs correct driver/config (AskUbuntu) ✅ Guaranteed by compositor; always tear-free (Wayland FAQ)
Security / App Isolation ⚠️ Via extensions, e.g., Xnamespace extension (The Register) ⚠️ Wayland tries to separate applications from each other. As a result, applications can't do many things ("We're treated like hostile threat actors on our own workstations")
Click into a window to terminate the application xkill ❌ Not natively available—some compositors may have proprietary mechanisms, which may not be present on every system
Click into a window to see its metadata xprop ❌ Not supported
Set and get metadata (properties) on windows to exchange information regarding windows ✅ X Atoms (Docs) ❌ Not supported
One window server used by virtually all desktop environments and distributions ✅ Xorg (and Xlibre) ❌ Every desktop environment comes with a different compositor, which behaves differently, supports different features and has different bugs

Status update

Update 06/2025: X11 is alive and well, despite what Red Hat wants you to believe. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver revitalizes the Xorg X11 server as a community project under new leadership.

And Red Hat wanted to silence it.


As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).

Wayland issues

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks auto-type in password managers

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

  • Wayland might allow the compositor (not: the application) to set window positions, but that means that as an application author, I can't do anything but wait for KDE to implement https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15329 - and even then, it will only work under KDE, not Gnome or elsewhere. Big step backward compared to X11!

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Wayland breaks multi desktop docks

  • "Unfortunately Wayland is not designed to support multi desktop dock projects. This is why each DE using Wayland is building their own custom docks. Plus there is a lot of complexity to support Wayland based apps and also merge that data with apps running in Xwayland. A dock isn't useful unless it knows about every window and app running on the system." zquestz/plank-reloaded#70 ❌ broken since 2025-06-10

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

Summary what is wrong with Wayland, by one of its contributors

image

Source: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/179#note_2965661

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

What now?

Following the professional application KiCad's advice:

Recommendations for Users

For Professional Use

If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:

Use X11-based desktop environments such as:

XFCE with X11 KDE Plasma with X11 MATE

Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support

Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only

Choose distributions that maintain X11 support - some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs

Source: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/#

Similarly, for Krite: https://www.davidrevoy.com/article1030/debian-12-kde-plasma-2024-install-guide#d-krita-as-appimage

References

@alerikaisattera
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You don't need SystemD to run NginX with PHP.

A computer incapable of running systemd is incapable of running NginX with PHP

You clearly missed the article above.

The article above is deranged nonsense

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Jun 13, 2025

You keep confusing GNOME and Wayland every time. You don't need to have dbus running at all for a complete Wayland session.

Thing is, every time I complain about Wayland ruining screen recorders, people keep saying I should use Portals. And those portals require D-Bus. It's all spaghetti architecture that maybe works on Gnome and - if you are lucky - on KDE but nowhere else (like on GNUstep which doesn't use D-Bus).

Most importantly, people don't choose Pipewire because it's so good, chances are they have no clue what Pipewire is - they choose it because it's a path of least resistance.

For me, it's the other way around - I don't even look into Pipewire because Red Hat is involved in it and it keeps being pushed on me. I don't even know whether it is good or bad, but ALSA (on Linux) and the native FreeBSD sound system usually work for me, so I see no need to change. Yet Wayland people always push Pipewire like there was nothing else.

@shakeyourbunny
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shakeyourbunny commented Jun 13, 2025

systemd

There is no reason to use anything other than systemd

I should point out to the Rust cultists that systemd is not 100% Rust and that needs to be changed to that.

If they take the bite, this will be glorious popcorn fodder.

@alerikaisattera
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I don't even look into Pipewire because Red Hat is involved in it and it keeps being pushed on me. I don't even know whether it is good or bad

Refusing to use a program solely because of the company that has contributed to it is peak derangement

@Consolatis
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I don't even look into Pipewire because Red Hat is involved in it and it keeps being pushed on me. I don't even know whether it is good or bad

Refusing to use a program solely because of the company that has contributed to it is peak derangement

I think its perfectly reasonable. Somebody surely sticks to their believes. Good thing that this company didn't contribute to the kernel, mesa or.. xorg.

@regs01
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regs01 commented Jun 13, 2025

A computer incapable of running systemd is incapable of running NginX with PHP

More than capable. SystemD requires tens of megabytes of dependencies, if not over hundred. Distributions for containers and controllers are just 10-20 MB in total. There is no space for multigigabyte distributions. Minimum install of Alpine Linux with OpenRC for containers is just 9 MB, half of which is libcrypto. Which is why it is so popular with LXC, Dockers etc. SystemD alone without tones of required libraries is near 20 MB, double the size of whole distribution.

The article above is deranged nonsense

Lack of tones of functionality is deranged nonsense?

@probonopd
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Good thing that this company didn't contribute to the kernel, mesa or.. xorg.

While they have contributed to the kernel, they luckily don't control it.
Apparently they control Xorg enough that it was necessary to fork it to keep it alive.
Has happened with OpenOffice and LibreOffice before, so no big deal.

@vitrif
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vitrif commented Jun 14, 2025

So, Linux was known for decades for its customizability and the hundreds of desktop environments to choose from. It was praised for its freedom of choice, "just use what you like and configure it how you like it!". On the desktop, we were slowly seeing DEs that would just work out of the box, without the need to dig through multiple configuration files, error logs, forum threads, and so on. We were getting there!

Now, if we don't want to be considered "legacy" - which X is now - we're stuck with the two big players: Gnome and KDE. Maybe a handful of niche ones could still be considered serious. Sure, there are more than that, but I've lost count of how many interesting-looking projects I came across whose wayland support was still marked as WiP, experimental, or something along those lines in the end.
When not using Gnome or KDE - and there are many valid reasons not to - it feels like going 20 years back in time. We're back to editing configuration files in the actual terminal (not even a virtual one, because, well, the DE won't start) just to get the bare basics of a graphical user interface running. Yay!

I ignored wayland for a long time because I didn't understand what it was or how it would benefit me - everything was working fine. But over time, it came up more and more when researching general Linux issues. You'd see it mentioned in forums, distro wikis, and so on. When I finally looked into it, I honestly couldn't believe the reality of it. That is, that Linux on the desktop had effectively gone from hundreds of DEs and total freedom of choice to "use one of the two and be happy with it". All because of the push for a technology that is just not ready yet.
And yes, coming from a programming background, I understand the technical side of the situation. X is "old", lacks features and might need a replacement, and maybe wayland is that replacement. But it's just not there yet. That's why I struggle to understand the "management decision" side of it - namely, the absolute push for wayland, no matter what.

Sorry for the rant, but even as a long-time fan and advocate of Linux, I've seriously considered switching back to Windows because of everything that happened to Linux lately. I always try to see it from the perspective of someone who wants their desktop environment to "just work" and doesn't care about technical details (Try it! Hard for us folks so deep into open source and software development!).
Now imagine this fictional end-user getting hit with: 1) pulseaudio, then 2) systemd and now 3) wayland.

Is Linux okay?

@alerikaisattera
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SystemD

What you're referring to as SystemD, is in fact systemd, not SystemD, systemD, SyStEmD, or any other variation. It is stated on https://systemd.io that the only official names are "systemd" (all lowercase even on the beginning of a sentence), or "systém D" on high holidays (whatever that means)

SystemD requires tens of megabytes

No, it takes just 10 MB of RAM. Any computer that can't run systemd can't run any practically useful software

Linux was never about having a fragmented ecosystem

Waypiss is all about having a fragmented ecosystem

Pipewire had adoption pains and now your audio just works, same with Systemd and same will be with Wayland.

It will never be the same with Waypiss. Pipewire and systemd are good because there is one Pipewire and one systemd, but there are >20 Waypiss compositors that are only partially compatible

Now i use ZFS on Arch Testing, am a KDE Developer working on an Wayland only Distrobution

Don't you accidentally happen to be a vegan as well?

@regs01
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regs01 commented Jun 14, 2025

No, it takes just 10 MB of RAM.

You clearly don't understand difference between RAM and storage. Although RAM is also important in controllers and small embedded servers. Every megabyte.

What you're referring to as SystemD, is in fact systemd, not SystemD, systemD, SyStEmD, or any other variation. It is stated on https://systemd.io that the only official names are "systemd" (all lowercase even on the beginning of a sentence), or "systém D" on high holidays (whatever that means)

Irrelevant

@sertraline
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sertraline commented Jun 14, 2025

better throubleshootable (see Pewdiepie)

He's running Linux Mint on his main computer which runs on Xorg. This is due to the fact that your new shiny thing is unusable on Nvidia GPUs, which constitute a 92% of the worldwide GPU market. Linux Mint is going to stay on Xorg for quite a while. Also, developers of your new shiny thing needed to implement explicit sync to make Nvidia work on Wayland, and they boycotted this change for at least 4 years, making everybody else's experience worse for no reason only to give up and implement explicit sync anyway, just wasting everybody's time. So I don't think Pewdiepie will be switching his main PC to Wayland any time soon with his Nvidia hardware.

screentearing

Screen tearing on Xorg has been already solved at least in 2015.

@slonkazoid
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because there is one Pipewire

Ok. confidently wrong

@alerikaisattera
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Ok. confidently wrong

Fart lovers are now denying the unity of Pipewire lol

This is due to the fact that your new shiny thing is unusable on Nvidia GPUs, which constitute a 92% of the worldwide GPU market.

Waypiss is very well usable on NVIDIA GPUs

Hyperland

There is no "e" there

@probonopd
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Now, if we don't want to be considered "legacy" - which X is now

"Legacy" no more. XLibre already has 2k stars on GitHub and is getting traction (code, bug reports, pull requests).
The Streisand effect has done a great job revitalizing X.

Here is a recent interview with the main developer:
https://felipec.wordpress.com/2025/06/11/enrico-weigelt/

@probonopd
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KDE want to actually kill the x11 backend

Nooo! Please don't! KDE is not Red Hat. Why is it doing its bidding?

@alerikaisattera
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alerikaisattera commented Jun 15, 2025

Nooo! Please don't! KDE is not Red Hat. Why is it doing its bidding?

They are right in wanting to remove X11. The only wrong part about it is migrating to Waypiss

@alerikaisattera
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The only way to save Waypiss is to have a unified Waypiss compositor, which will never happen

@alerikaisattera
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We have multiple XServers, whats your point?

Only one of which is relevant. This is not the case with Waypiss compositors, where at least 4 of >20 partially compatible compositors are relevant

@bodqhrohro
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nobody runs a plain X Server but a DE

@silverhadch excuse me??? I do.

@alerikaisattera
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We have three. Kwin, Mutter, Wlroots

No, we have >20, and wlroots is a library, not a compositor. Quit smoking

@bodqhrohro
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We living like the 1980s, i see.

I used a rotary phone way until 2011.

And in 2022, when the invasion started, I unfolded a few MW receivers (for which, Soviet transmitters were also recovered after a downtime, despite losing financing before). In fact, for many residents of occupied regions, MW radio was the only source of Ukrainian information, as Internet/TV/UHF infrastructure was destroyed there, while MW reception is great even in basements.

@alerikaisattera
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Wlroots is a compositor Libary to build an Compositor, i just grouped all the Wlroots based Compositors since they are 95% the same thing as Wlroots.

  1. Just because the use the same library does not mean they are the same compositor, nor does it mean they are fully compatible
  2. There are numerous compositors not using wlroots

@alerikaisattera
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I never said fully. I said they they are compatible for example wlroots has wdisplays which is xrandr or arandr but wlroots and it works on all wlroots compositor since wlroots as the base has all the necessary protocols.

So, they are partially compatible, like all non-wlroots Waypiss compositors

@Monsterovich
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Monsterovich commented Jun 15, 2025

Nooo! Please don't! KDE is not Red Hat. Why is it doing its bidding?

Same opinion, spending effort and resources on your own display server and maintaining it, now especially when there is a fork of Xorg - it seems pointless. Sure, KDE seems to have the most robust Wayland-server of all, but because of the flawed and fragmented Wayland architecture, there's little excuse for it anyway (perhaps targeting mobile and tablet devices?).

@alerikaisattera
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now especially when there is a fork of Xorg

A fork of Xorg is an ideological fork, and like any ideological fork is doomed to die

KDE seems to have the most robust Wayland-server of all

Weston and Mutter are surely more robust than KWin

It's certainly a good idea to drop Xorg, but they should migrate to Arcan, not Waypiss

@Kreijstal
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now especially when there is a fork of Xorg

A fork of Xorg is an ideological fork, and like any ideological fork is doomed to die

KDE seems to have the most robust Wayland-server of all

Weston and Mutter are surely more robust than KWin

It's certainly a good idea to drop Xorg, but they should migrate to Arcan, not Waypiss

our options are fork xorg, or fork gtk, or fork qt, not great options, tbh.

@probonopd
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  • fork xorg - DONE (XLibre)

@sertraline
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Waypiss is very well usable on NVIDIA GPUs

I don't find this to be true. Usable is a very vague term which I learned I have to dismiss when it's coming from Linux community. I often read from them that something is usable, try to use it myself, get countless crashes and glitches in front of my face and they go like "yeah haha it happens but just ignore it, it's usable and just works™️. You launch something in fullscreen and get black screen? People reply "Nvidia, duh! Just use windowed mode". This is because Linux people are used to live like this and learned to ignore the mess that happens around them, but no, it is a far call away from being usable. In fact, as we all may know GNOME used to straight disallow booting Wayland with Nvidia, I don't know if this is still true. Then Fedora threw Xorg away completely and when you booted up GNOME on Nvidia you just... couldn't do anything until you installed Xorg manually from the TTY. I don't really know what they hoped to achieve with this. Just using the opportunity to humiliate their users for owning Nvidia and requiring CUDA for their work, perhaps?

@Monsterovich
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Monsterovich commented Jun 15, 2025

A fork of Xorg is an ideological fork, and like any ideological fork is doomed to die

It looks a bit the opposite, as if Freedesktop's Xorg is an ideological fork and XLibre is not. 😛 Hence the backlash against the "wrong" developers.

Weston and Mutter are surely more robust than KWin

No, the KDE's display server is more modular and feature-rich in nature, it has almost nothing to do with GNOME's Wayland server (which couldn't even implement server-side decorations), and certainly nothing to do with Weston, which has absolutely nothing in comparison to both.

@Monsterovich
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our options are fork xorg, or fork gtk, or fork qt, not great options, tbh.

Why make a fork of GTK3 is understandable and quite obvious, why make a fork of Qt?

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