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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!
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Wayland.md

Think twice before abandoning Xorg. Wayland breaks everything!

Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Update 06/2025: X11 is alive and well, despite what Red Hat wants you to believe. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver revitalizes the Xorg X11 server as a community project under new leadership.

And Red Hat wanted to silence it.

As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks NoMachine NX

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

References

@danielg4
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danielg4 commented Jun 6, 2025

Every time someone complains about Wayland, 70% of the time the response is "Wayland is just a protocol, bro" (this should be the Wayland motto and printed on a t-shirt). The rest of the time the response is "This is the compositor's responsibility, bro" (which, if you think about, it's the exactly same thing as the first answer).

It's also the inverse of the truth, because X11 is just a protocol, whereas Wayland is also a base library without which there are no implementations in the wild. X11 has a rich history to the contrary. Xorg forked from XFree86, which was itself a fork. History repeats.

@probonopd
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Check this out:
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver

An Xorg fork to get X11 revitalized. Very promising!

@regs01
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regs01 commented Jun 7, 2025

To be honest, as a developer, X11 is pain to work with. We need something as simple, yet as functional as WinAPI. Don't get me wrong - Wayland and those XDG portals are even greater pain.

@alerikaisattera
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An Xorg fork to get X11 revitalized. Very promising!

It's not a fork to get X11 revitalized. It is an ideological fork, and as any ideological fork is doomed to die

@danielg4
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danielg4 commented Jun 7, 2025

An Xorg fork to get X11 revitalized. Very promising!

It's not a fork to get X11 revitalized. It is an ideological fork, and as any ideological fork is doomed to die

So? Prior to dying, it could be actually usable…

@qiolol
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qiolol commented Jun 7, 2025

"Wayland is just a protocol, bro" (this should be the Wayland motto and printed on a t-shirt)

XDDDDD

@sertraline
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Would you look at that, it's RedHat at it again.

{01414D8A-139D-438F-ADA8-1D91064A2294}

@aki-k
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aki-k commented Jun 8, 2025

https://nitter.poast.org/LundukeJournal/status/1930797938705568127#m

@alerikaisattera
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Screenshot_20250608_152635

Checkmate, Xorg simps

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Jun 9, 2025 •
edited
Loading

Interesting!

https://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/2025/06/06/msg032747.html

this morning, Redhat employees banned me from the freedesktop.org gitlab
infrastructure - so censored all my work (not just on Xorg). They killed
my account, my git repos, my tickets in Xorg and closed all my merge
requests. And then making fun on social media about it.

(...)

It's now clear that freedesktop.org is the Redskirts, and they want
to kill X.

(...)

I don't know why, but it really looks they're quite scared by one guy
that's just trying to actually bring X11 forward. Hard to find he right
words for telling how honored I'm about that.

From now on, every bug report on Wayland, every news post about Wayland, will hopefully link to https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver. The Streisand effect might work against Red Hat here!

@aki-k
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aki-k commented Jun 9, 2025

Here's the Karolapocalypse:

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/?sort=created_date&state=closed&first_page_size=20

@WellIDKRealy
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X bros we are so back

@silverhadch
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X bros we are so back

X bros, the biggest Distro and Desktop just dropped X.

@silverhadch
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silverhadch commented Jun 11, 2025 •
edited
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This feels like an Grrr Wayland, GNOME, Pipewire, Flatpak, Red Hat, Systemd Bad Echo chamber for Conspiracy Theorist while the biggest Majority of Linux is moving into the future. People here pretend as if Legacy Software will make an comeback lol.

@silverhadch
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Would you look at that, it's RedHat at it again.

{01414D8A-139D-438F-ADA8-1D91064A2294}

Look guys the far right conspiracy theorist.

@regs01
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regs01 commented Jun 11, 2025

This feels like an Grrr Wayland, GNOME, Pipewire, Flatpak, Red Hat, Systemd Bad Echo chamber for Conspiracy Theorist while the biggest Majority of Linux is moving into the future. People here pretend as if Legacy Software will make an comeback lol.

Cheap marketing slogans

@alerikaisattera
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X bros, the biggest Distro and Desktop just dropped X.

AV Linux still uses Xorg, what are you smoking?

Wayland, GNOME, Pipewire, Flatpak, Red Hat, Systemd Bad Echo chamber

That's because Waypiss, Gnome and Flatpak are indeed evil. Pipewire and systemd, on the other hand, are awesome

@silverhadch
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X bros, the biggest Distro and Desktop just dropped X.

AV Linux still uses Xorg, what are you smoking?

Wayland, GNOME, Pipewire, Flatpak, Red Hat, Systemd Bad Echo chamber

That's because Waypiss, Gnome and Flatpak are indeed evil. Pipewire and systemd, on the other hand, are awesome

Ubuntu and RHEL (technically also Android but they dont use Xshit since they want their grafics to be atleast from this millenium) are the biggest Linux Distros. If you like it or not Linux would have never taken off without Red Hat and Canonical.

And give me any actuall arguments for why they are bad instead of some conspiracy BS.

@8bitprodigy
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That's because Waypiss, Gnome and Flatpak are indeed evil. Pipewire and systemd, on the other hand, are awesome

SystemD is a regression, and pipewire, I have mixed feelings on.

@alerikaisattera
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Ubuntu and RHEL (technically also Android but they dont use Xshit since they want their grafics to be atleast from this millenium) are the biggest Linux Distros.

Turns out AV Linux is much smaller than I thought and is only 5.3 GB. However, there are distributrions larger than Ubuntu and RHEL

Ubuntu: 5.9 GB
RHEL: 10.32 GB
SUSE Linux Enterprise: 12.14 GB

Waypiss simps can't compare numbers

SystemD

First, what you're referring to as SystemD, is in fact systemd, not SystemD, systemD, SyStEmD, or any other variation. It is stated on https://systemd.io that the only official names are "systemd" (all lowercase even on the beginning of a sentence), or "systém D" on high holidays (whatever that means). Second, systemd is much better than any other init

pipewire

Is better because it doesn't fart

@gbjbaanb
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It breaks a lot of accessibility tools too. Even Gnome admits this. They really should have fixe these issues before doing this but it seems the ideology proponents are pushing it forward faster than the technical proponents can move. the billion dollar companies pushing this should put their money where their mouths are and ensure this stuff is fixed first.

https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Wayland

eg Keyboard handling completely broken

Mouse Review is broken

Sticky keys is broken

@italian-brainrot
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whats yall thoughts on the new Xorg fork drama

@silverhadch
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whats yall thoughts on the new Xorg fork drama

There is none. Some Dev who has been breaking Xorg ABIs every three minutes made a Fork on Free Desktop where the Readme called them racist and company slaves and moles and stuff and got himself banned. Most intelligent X zealot moment attack the ones hosting your fork.

@Monsterovich
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whats yall thoughts on the new Xorg fork drama

There is none. Some Dev who has been breaking Xorg ABIs every three minutes made a Fork on Free Desktop where the Readme called them racist and company slaves and moles and stuff and got himself banned. Most intelligent X zealot moment attack the ones hosting your fork.

cry harder

@silverhadch
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whats yall thoughts on the new Xorg fork drama

There is none. Some Dev who has been breaking Xorg ABIs every three minutes made a Fork on Free Desktop where the Readme called them racist and company slaves and moles and stuff and got himself banned. Most intelligent X zealot moment attack the ones hosting your fork.

cry harder

Lmao i am not the one on the sinking ship why should i cry.

@qiolol
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qiolol commented Jun 12, 2025

Lmao i am not the one on the sinking ship why should i cry.

I hate to say it, but I'm pretty sure we're all on a sinking ship (Wayland or otherwise).

@Sivecano
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2024 was the year of the wayland desktop.

@silverhadch
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2024 was the year of the wayland desktop.

2006 of the Xorg Desktop.

@Isnapple43
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I’m happy about all of this criticism, because it will likely lead to better Wayland.

Also I severely doubt XLibre will bring any meaningful changes for the end-user over Xorg, except if you care about what your display server’s stance on DEI is, which are only people like Lunduke and his goons.

@silverhadch
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I’m happy about all of this criticism, because it will likely lead to better Wayland.

Also I severely doubt XLibre will bring any meaningful changes for the end-user over Xorg, except if you care about what your display server’s stance on DEI is, which are only people like Lunduke and his goons.

Almost all of these were solved years ago but the author is a conspiracy theorist who thinks the Red Hat is in his walls. So any solution that involves Free Desktop Stuff is evil as if Xorg isnt on Free Desktop.

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